@Tater-T: yeah, there's a scripture that not a sparrow falls to the ground without Him knowing... which means He see the millions upon millions of acts of violence and death in the animal kingdom every day, far more than all the human suffering. But if He actually cared about animals, He wouldn't have designed them to be eaten -- the entire concept of a food chain shows He doesn't give a [crap] what happens to animals. I mean, after having the animals saved in the Ark the first thing He said was kill some as sacrifice and start eating the rest. They weren't created in His image, so why should He care?
I Want to Believe
JoinedPosts by I Want to Believe
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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I need help "de-converting" my Dad! My Dad's Story....
by garbonzo inhi guys, i saw this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/209643/1/de-conversion-where-are-you.
i've experienced them all and now i'm at 7).
when i was at a 6) i didn't care and figured my dad would be happier believing in something false anyway, but i asked him if he would rather know the truth about something or not even if it will cost you saddness and he said he would rather the truth.
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I Want to Believe
The trouble is that the triggers are different for everyone. What got me were doctrinal/logical issues, but those do nothing at all for my wife, who never "got" those in the first place. The only things that bother her at all are the child abuse issues, bloodguilt from Malawi/changing blood issues and things like that. And things like the UN NGO issue didn't really affect either of us.
So I agree with Ding, what he values most determines what will affect his outlook on the Society, though you still have to be subtle. And certainly don't attack the Bible, especially since you can use a plain reading of it (as other threads have shown) to refute the WTS's often convoluted explainations that result from trying to tie everything together to their particular point of view (whatever that happens to be at the time).
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New here...need some support
by Freeof1914 infirst of all i am happy to be here..this site has been an invaluable tool which helped me get to the point where i am today.
i was born and raised as a jehovah's witness and i am now 30 yrs old.
my entire family are die hard witnesses; pioneers, elders, bethel etc.
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I Want to Believe
I am currently going through the same thing. First off, please don't rush--I know the feeling of freedom once you awaken can be intoxicating; I'm a 36-year-old born in and felt the exact same way and know the self-destructive arguments you might be facing: I only got married to avoid fornacation it wasn't true love, I've never been with another woman so how do I know she's the one, our life together was based on a lie, she's still in and we'll just grow apart anyway, etc. etc.
LIke I said, I just wanted to ditch it all and start fresh, but my reasoning (and my own moral sense) is starting to come back to me. It's not much different than any other mid-life crisis, in that the feelings are prompted by wasted opportunites and wanting to play catch-up and live to the full. But destroying your relationship (hopefully there was some love) isn't going to solve your feelings and it will only validate your family's belief in the sterotypical apostate who abandons all moral standards upon leaving.
Even if you think she's deep in the org, your staying with her gives you a chance to "win her without a word" through your conduct :P
Others on this board gave me the same advice: take things slow, there's no need to rush into another life-altering decision. So what I'm doing is starting small on personal improvements: Taking a night class, learning martial arts, reading self-help books, getting to know myself. If my wife comes around and accepts the new me and what our life will be, great. If she doesn't, than at least I tried. To do anything less would be extremely selfish (at least to me; but I'm not judging your situation)
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An open apology
by I Want to Believe inno real need for anyone to respond; i just have to put this out there.
it's kind of a step in my recovery.. .
i have to say i'm sorry to anyone i've hurt in my life because of my upbringing.
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I Want to Believe
No real need for anyone to respond; I just have to put this out there. It's kind of a step in my recovery.
I have to say I'm sorry to anyone I've hurt in my life because of my upbringing. I'm sorry, Robert, Steven, Bertie, Betty, Judy, and any other family members I have had to shun over the years, or simply kept at arm's length to avoid treating like family.
I'm sorry Ivan, Angie, Joe, Jessica, Hannah and everyone else who's ever repeatedly extended friendship to me only to have me coldly decline because you were a bad influence.
I'm sorry Kendra and any others I treated with disrespect for my former beliefs.
I'm sorry Christina, Joanna, Daniel, and any others I may have pushed toward the organization.
I'm sorry Ilsa, Jim, Stephen (Jeannie?) and all the rest who faded before me. I wish I would've noticed. I wish I would've known.
And a final apology to all my friends and aquaintences who are still in: I'm sorry I can't come back, and I'm sorry I can't get you out. I can only hope that some of you find your way out into true freedom at some point. I'll be here waiting and watching for you.
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Question about the memorial :)
by TimothyT ini have no doubt that in a few weeks when the campaign to spread memorials invites is underway that my good friend, the jw, will give me an invitation.
she has already told me that she would support me when walking in, telling me that i could sit next to her and she wouldnt give a damn what others would think that she was encouraging a disfellowshipped person.
she is very sweet, and i appreciate her thoughts.. however, i would rather not go because i believe the whole thing is done wrong anyway.
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I Want to Believe
I completely empathize with your situation; My wife, still having trouble accepting the red pill, wants us to go to the memorial still, but I am just dreading it. I've never missed one, even when my parents were inactive, but now I really don't see the point. Is it for only the 144,000 anoited of JWs? Then why do we have to go at all? Did Jesus actually mean for every one of his followers to partake? Than why would I go to a JW memorial where I'm not supposed to partake?
But I fear the wife will force the issue, and I'm sure questions will be asked of our recent whereabouts. I'm also afraid that I won't be able to listen to the talk without going all MST3K on it.
Your situation is at least a choice, and if I had a choice there's no way I would waste a perfectly good evening with that punishment.
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"Overlapping generation" explanation - TRANSCRIBED EXTRACT from Friday's talk (DC 2011-12)
by AnnOMaly ini thought this would be easier to examine if written down:.
god's kingdom will soon come.
so we know that god's kingdom will soon come.. .
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I Want to Believe
Desirous OfChange: "...and the truly faithful are in anticipation of a "correction" -- or New Lite."
That was me for a while until I suddenly realized that if you wait for "New Light" on "New Light" then when does it stop? If you're waiting for everything you believe in to be corrected then how can you believe it after it's corrected? You'll just be be waiting for it to be corrected again, never having a solid belief for the rest of your life.
And I haven't seen anyone mention what, to me, is the biggest flaw in the "school-age" illustration: It relies on a snapshot; it only works if the Generation pronouncement is made while both of them are in school. For instance Bob is 12, Dave is 4. If you say "this generation of school-age kids" at that point, than only Bob is in the school-age generation. If you wait until Bob is 20 and Dave is 12, than "this generation of school-age kids"only refers to Dave. So the actualpronouncement of "this generation of school-age kids" has to be made specifically when Bob and Dave are both in school. So, even if you were to accept the illustration as valid, it still means that when Jesus said "this generation" he couldn't be talking about the generation in 1914 (cause Dave wasn't in school yet) and he couldn't be talking about the generation that sees the end (cause Bob is already out of school). The only way to collectively refer to them both at the same time would be if Jesus was specifically talking about the late 70s-early90s, because the snapshot of "this generation" has to be made when the overlap occurs, not before or after. And even the Society hasn't given any reason, credible or otherwise, to indicate anything pointing to that time period (unless they're going to re-purpose 1975).
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Another day, another apostate. Here's my story.
by I Want to Believe inbeen lurking for a bit, and feel safe enough now to tell my story (condensed).. i'm a third-generation born-in, but my parents were inactive for most of my upbringing.
this means i got the worst of both worlds--no worldly friends (home schooled all but grades 2-3), no witness friends (since we never went to the hall except for memorial), and a generally isolated upbringing in a tiny, tiny town.
needless to say, my emotional, social, and personal growth were stunted.
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I Want to Believe
UPDATE: Well, I tore up my Blood Card yesterday. That's a milestone I guess. My wife is still struggling. I was supposed to have a TMS talk today and it set her off. She wanted to go back and have everything the way it was. She wished she could forget what she knows--the fight for her is much harder than it was for me. She keeps reading everything she can but she can't seem to let go of her safety net, which is tearing her apart. She can't talk to her family or friends, and isn't ready to find support in forums like this, so she's super stressed and depressed, and mad at me for shattering her dream.
I've ordered one of Hassan's books that has been recommended here, and I hope it helps because I can see her mind stuck in a loop, twisting every which way to try and excuse the Society even as she accepts more and more evidence against them. I'm trying my best to be a comfort, but I'm not in the best place myself either (though you guys have been incredibly encouraging). I'm looking into counseling services provided through my job, and hope the insurance covers enough sessions to be helpful.
Part of me just wants to move on, to bite the bullet and "come out" already; I'm honest to a fault, so it'll probably come to a head sooner rather than later anyway, and it would be nice to have some control over the timing and approach. But that's probably a bad idea. I just wish the whole organization would collapse. Wouldn't that be nice?
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I still feel the same, now with uncertainty
by I Want to Believe inso i bought a "first bible" for my 2 year old.
it has about a dozen hard pages so they can't be torn, has colorful illustrations and touches on the basic stories of noah, david, jesus, etc.
but without the wtb&ts spin (or graphic depictions of the wicked drowning, etc.).
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I Want to Believe
@bohm: The Bible hasn't not been a force of good; My main criticism is of the Society. And if I say to my wife "they don't accurately follow the Bible," and then turn around and say "well, the Bible's wrong anyway" she'll shut down for sure, not that I'm fully prepared to discount it wholesale just yet either. Right now my concern is keeping my family together, and my wife's concern is that if we leave the Org we'll leave God entirely. I essentially have to show that leaving will draw us closer to God without the Society in the way. Like I said, my choices at this stage in life are far more complicated than "Do whatever I want."
Everyone else, thanks for your understanding and support.
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I still feel the same, now with uncertainty
by I Want to Believe inso i bought a "first bible" for my 2 year old.
it has about a dozen hard pages so they can't be torn, has colorful illustrations and touches on the basic stories of noah, david, jesus, etc.
but without the wtb&ts spin (or graphic depictions of the wicked drowning, etc.).
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I Want to Believe
So I bought a "first Bible" for my 2 year old. It has about a dozen hard pages so they can't be torn, has colorful illustrations and touches on the basic stories of Noah, David, Jesus, etc. but without the WTB&TS spin (or graphic depictions of the wicked drowning, etc.). But it still felt weird buying it. So I tried to force the issue by buying a rated-R movie (The Matrix on Blu-Ray; seemed appropriate), but I still felt weird. And I realized that, despite my awakening and growing mid-life crisis, not much in my life is different at all.
As a born-in, I don't know how to start over, since I've never thought of what my life would be like otherwise. I've never wanted to celebrate holidays (and still don't), and can't really change my life in other ways since I have my family, and most of my life choices are still binding (which feeds the mid-life crisis feeling, my "bloom of youth" having been squandered). And it's especially hard trying to fade in a town where "spies" are everywhere. When I was buying my JW contraband, I kept looking over my shoulder--this is a town where it's easy to run into someone you know at the store.
Am I supposed to feel different? I did at first, like a weight was lifted... but now I'm just caught spinning my wheels again. Day in, day out, my life is the same, only without any sense of direction and the fear that my family could be taken away at any time if I say the wrong thing. I almost feel more trapped than before, carrying a terrific secret that I can't tell anybody I care about. We were planning a vacation to Florida next year to see my wife's family, take the kids to the theme parks, and have a great time... but now I'm feeling apprehensive about it.
Sorry if this rant is all over the place, but lack of clear focus is the theme of my life right now. I just needed to vent a little.
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Another day, another apostate. Here's my story.
by I Want to Believe inbeen lurking for a bit, and feel safe enough now to tell my story (condensed).. i'm a third-generation born-in, but my parents were inactive for most of my upbringing.
this means i got the worst of both worlds--no worldly friends (home schooled all but grades 2-3), no witness friends (since we never went to the hall except for memorial), and a generally isolated upbringing in a tiny, tiny town.
needless to say, my emotional, social, and personal growth were stunted.
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I Want to Believe
Thanks, jamiebowers! It would be nice to find others around here, since we're pretty isolated from the rest of the U.S.